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gomer
WayToRussified
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 414
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 Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| gomer wrote: | | If you're from the West, try getting a visa to visit the DPRK and see what happens. |
If you ask them to put the visa on a paper separate from your passport, it would be good. Otherwise, expect to be questioned when you go through passport control in the West, especially the U.S. |
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Lao Shu
Frequent Guest
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| RusskiCanadian23 wrote: |
...as I realised, as starnge as it might sound, such a system is far more efficient then a capitalist, "democratical" one. |
Strange indeed - the efficient system collapsed, while the inefficient system is still alive.
| RusskiCanadian23 wrote: |
Because a nation, in my opinion, is like a herd of sheep, and, unless the sheep want to get eaten by wolves, they MUST all go together, the same way their lead/shepherd goes. Otherwise the sheep will get lost and eaten by wolves...
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People are cattle, leaders are shepherds ... Who are the wolves then? May be the shepherds offer to their herds a protection from themselves? And those, who dare to question it, will go to torture chambers. A beautiful picture of a brave new world. Although nothing new compared to Zamyatin's "We".
Russki, I do not actually understand how you are planning to determine the leader. You think you know what is the right way to go. What about other candidates for "shepherds"? They could have different ideas about the "right way". Why they should follow you, but not you should follow them? |
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RusskiCanadian23
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1107
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada/Âàíêóâåð, Áðèòàíñêàÿ Êîëóìáèÿ, Êàíàäà
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Lao Shu wrote: | | RusskiCanadian23 wrote: |
...as I realised, as starnge as it might sound, such a system is far more efficient then a capitalist, "democratical" one. |
Strange indeed - the efficient system collapsed, while the inefficient system is still alive.
| RusskiCanadian23 wrote: |
Because a nation, in my opinion, is like a herd of sheep, and, unless the sheep want to get eaten by wolves, they MUST all go together, the same way their lead/shepherd goes. Otherwise the sheep will get lost and eaten by wolves...
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People are cattle, leaders are shepherds ... Who are the wolves then? May be the shepherds offer to their herds a protection from themselves? And those, who dare to question it, will go to torture chambers. A beautiful picture of a brave new world. Although nothing new compared to Zamyatin's "We".
Russki, I do not actually understand how you are planning to determine the leader. You think you know what is the right way to go. What about other candidates for "shepherds"? They could have different ideas about the "right way". Why they should follow you, but not you should follow them? |
The wolves are the enemies of your nation, the Americans, the Nazis, the terrorists, the Ewoks, the Siths, whatever your enemies are.
As for the leader question, hmm... that is a good question indeed... well in CCCP, we just let the Party, the Politburo in particular, choose our leader for us. So, we didn't really need to think and make the hard choices ourselves. I guess what I am trying to say is that such a system relieved the people of the responcibility for making choices and decisions, be they right, or wrong, because we didn't make those choices, or decisions, the Government, the Central Comitee of the Communist Party, the Politburo did. I don't know if that is a good thing or not. For your self, decide you must, only show you the facts, can I!  |
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RusskiCanadian23
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1107
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada/Âàíêóâåð, Áðèòàíñêàÿ Êîëóìáèÿ, Êàíàäà
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Lao Shu wrote: | | RusskiCanadian23 wrote: |
...as I realised, as starnge as it might sound, such a system is far more efficient then a capitalist, "democratical" one. |
Strange indeed - the efficient system collapsed, while the inefficient system is still alive.
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The reason is what I told you before. Our society was divided, weakened, and degraded. That is why it fell apart. You must remember that before this, Russia has been through some waaaay tougher times (think Leningrad, blocaded by Germans, hundreds of thousands of people starving to death, and Stalingrad, where Soviet troops fought with knifes, steel pipes, and whatever else they could find, after they ran out of bullets, to stop the advancing fascists) , but we PERSEVERED, we got through all those horrible things. Why? Because the whole nation stood up as one, and stood through it all. In this case we didn't do that, and destroyed ourselves as a result! |
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surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6996
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| RusskiCanadian23 wrote: | | Lao Shu wrote: | | RusskiCanadian23 wrote: |
...as I realised, as starnge as it might sound, such a system is far more efficient then a capitalist, "democratical" one. |
Strange indeed - the efficient system collapsed, while the inefficient system is still alive.
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The reason is what I told you before. Our society was divided, weakened, and degraded. That is why it fell apart. You must remember that before this, Russia has been through some waaaay tougher times (think Leningrad, blocaded by Germans, hundreds of thousands of people starving to death, and Stalingrad, where Soviet troops fought with knifes, steel pipes, and whatever else they could find, after they ran out of bullets, to stop the advancing fascists) , but we PERSEVERED, we got through all those horrible things. Why? Because the whole nation stood up as one, and stood through it all. In this case we didn't do that, and destroyed ourselves as a result! |
well the majority in Lenningrad didn't get through it...and the rest of russia didn't have to endure the same experience. But yes I think this is why russian people are so tough....your entire existence has been a brutal one. Sometimes I think dictators...such as Tsars or Kings etc can rule very effectively. Problem with having a chice is that we need to be really educated in what the choices are...which so often in democracies the voters are so very ignorant. And seeing how people come from different back grounds and have different perspectives...how can true decisions really be made. People are in fact sheep and it takes a sheperd to lead the flock...just hopefully not astray |
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gomer
WayToRussified
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Lao Shu wrote: | | People are cattle, leaders are shepherds ... Who are the wolves then? May be the shepherds offer to their herds a protection from themselves? And those, who dare to question it, will go to torture chambers. A beautiful picture of a brave new world. |
Has anyone seen the movie "1984" ( yeah, I know it's old )? A brave new world indeed where the enemy is whoever the government decides it will be on any particular day. Hmm... its like that now, right? |
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RusskiCanadian23
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1107
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada/Âàíêóâåð, Áðèòàíñêàÿ Êîëóìáèÿ, Êàíàäà
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| gomer wrote: | | Lao Shu wrote: | | People are cattle, leaders are shepherds ... Who are the wolves then? May be the shepherds offer to their herds a protection from themselves? And those, who dare to question it, will go to torture chambers. A beautiful picture of a brave new world. |
Has anyone seen the movie "1984" ( yeah, I know it's old )? A brave new world indeed where the enemy is whoever the government decides it will be on any particular day. Hmm... its like that now, right? |
Well, at least the government gets to decide, not a bunch of oligarhs, like it was in Yeltsin's (your, Dermocrat's) time! |
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Daria
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: Êàíàäà
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| RusskiCanadian23 wrote: | | gomer wrote: | | Lao Shu wrote: | | People are cattle, leaders are shepherds ... Who are the wolves then? May be the shepherds offer to their herds a protection from themselves? And those, who dare to question it, will go to torture chambers. A beautiful picture of a brave new world. |
Has anyone seen the movie "1984" ( yeah, I know it's old )? A brave new world indeed where the enemy is whoever the government decides it will be on any particular day. Hmm... its like that now, right? |
Well, at least the government gets to decide, not a bunch of oligarhs, like it was in Yeltsin's (your, Dermocrat's) time! |
Russki, the differece now is that, "that bunch of oligarhs" IS the government now. |
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surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6996
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| oh hey wait a second...didn't Yeltsin appoint Putin? |
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Lao Shu
Frequent Guest
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| RusskiCanadian23 wrote: |
The wolves are the enemies of your nation, the Americans, the Nazis, the terrorists, the Ewoks, the Siths, whatever your enemies are.
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By other words, wolves are sheep that do not belong to your flock. What about other flocks and things like Bloody Sunday 1972? British could also claim that the nation must be unified and so on.
| Quote: | | …such a system relieved the people of the responsibility for making choices and decisions, be they right, or wrong… |
Neither Nazis needed to make hard decisions. Just killed the “wolves” pointed out by Fuhrer. Not making choices is also a choice. Responsibility is yours.
| Quote: | | A nation where all people can go separate ways is a divided nation. And a divided nation is a WEAK nation! |
If people do not sing chorus, do not march in columns, and dare to question orders of the leaders - it does not mean that a nation is weak. The “strong” USSR was unsuccessful in the Winter War 1939 against “weak” Finland. There are "weak" countries, which were not eaten by wolves.
| Quote: | | …and Stalingrad, where Soviet troops fought with knifes, steel pipes, and whatever else they could find, after they ran out of bullets, to stop the advancing fascists… |
Do you think that people fought only because the Communist Party guided them? I am sure they would fight like this in any case.
| Quote: | | Our society was divided, weakened, and degraded. That is why it fell apart. |
The system collapsed because it was divided, weakened, and degraded. And why was it was divided, weakened, and degraded? You can use different words. The meaning will be the same – the system could not sustain itself any more. Why do you think it was effective? |
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RusskiCanadian23
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1107
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada/Âàíêóâåð, Áðèòàíñêàÿ Êîëóìáèÿ, Êàíàäà
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If people do not sing chorus, do not march in columns, and dare to question orders of the leaders - it does not mean that a nation is weak. The “strong” USSR was unsuccessful in the Winter War 1939 against “weak” Finland. There are "weak" countries, which were not eaten by wolves. |
Thanks for proving my point for me. Finland won, because it's people were united and prepared to fight together for their freedom. In USSR meanwhile not everyone supported the invasion of Finland, in fact some people in the Politburo even were against it, but were too scared to tell Stalin about it.
And also there was the Mannergheim barrier... |
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Lao Shu
Frequent Guest
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| RusskiCanadian23 wrote: | | Quote: |
The “strong” USSR was unsuccessful in the Winter War 1939 against “weak” Finland. |
Thanks for proving my point for me. Finland won, because it's people were united and prepared to fight together for their freedom.
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Russki, did you want to prove that totalitarianism is superior to capitalism and democracy, or do I misunderstand something?
The Soviet Union was a totalitarian country in 1939. Those who would dare to even think about questioning orders of the leaders had been already executed or sent to Gulag. As far as Finland was concerned:
| Quote: | | Both Germany and Russia attempted to establish a political bridgehead in Finland. Neither of them succeeded. The Communist Party was banned in Finland in the 1930s, and the activities of the pro-German extremist right wing were curbed at the end of the same decade. Democratic forces retained a majority in all parliamentary elections. They were the Social Democratic Party, the centrist Agrarian League, the moderate conservative National Coalition Party and a Swedish-speaking liberal party. |
http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=14983&LAN=ENG
The site http://www.scanpol.kent.edu/finland.htm gives party distribution of seats in the Finnish Parliament in 1907-2003. The Social Democrats were, as usually, first in 1939, followed by the Agrarian League.
As you see, Finland was a capitalistic and in a sense a democratic state, which beat up the totalitarian and militarized Soviet Union. How does this prove your point? |
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RusskiCanadian23
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1107
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada/Âàíêóâåð, Áðèòàíñêàÿ Êîëóìáèÿ, Êàíàäà
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Lao Shu wrote: | | RusskiCanadian23 wrote: | | Quote: |
The “strong” USSR was unsuccessful in the Winter War 1939 against “weak” Finland. |
Thanks for proving my point for me. Finland won, because it's people were united and prepared to fight together for their freedom.
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Russki, did you want to prove that totalitarianism is superior to capitalism and democracy, or do I misunderstand something?
The Soviet Union was a totalitarian country in 1939. Those who would dare to even think about questioning orders of the leaders had been already executed or sent to Gulag. As far as Finland was concerned:
| Quote: | | Both Germany and Russia attempted to establish a political bridgehead in Finland. Neither of them succeeded. The Communist Party was banned in Finland in the 1930s, and the activities of the pro-German extremist right wing were curbed at the end of the same decade. Democratic forces retained a majority in all parliamentary elections. They were the Social Democratic Party, the centrist Agrarian League, the moderate conservative National Coalition Party and a Swedish-speaking liberal party. |
http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=14983&LAN=ENG
The site http://www.scanpol.kent.edu/finland.htm gives party distribution of seats in the Finnish Parliament in 1907-2003. The Social Democrats were, as usually, first in 1939, followed by the Agrarian League.
As you see, Finland was a capitalistic and in a sense a democratic state, which beat up the totalitarian and militarized Soviet Union. How does this prove your point? |
Ok, maybe you are right... Let's just call it a draw. From your name, I assume you are Chinese. From your political views, I deduce you are from Taiwan. A little isle, that, through most of it's existence has to battle to keep itself out of the grasp of Red China. You probably despise everything that even smells like Communism, so you are pretty biased on this matter. Am I right? |
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karnot
Frequent Guest
Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As you see, Finland was a capitalistic and in a sense a democratic state, which beat up the totalitarian and militarized Soviet Union. |
Umm...yeah, Finland "beat up" the Soviet Union, but it was the Soviet Union who recieved parts of Finland territory. So who beat up who ? |
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surfguy
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 6996
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Well Russia has had a lot of defeats through out it's history...Japan War, Crimea, etc. etc. |
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