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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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 Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| vitalsigns wrote: | | It's funny how people come to supposedly ask questions who actually know more about the topic than those who respond to them. Well, the egos are tickled, so I guess it's good. |
If you are referring to me asking questions and already knowing the answers better than Ekaterina, you have done both of us a grave disservice.
My knowledge about Russia is superficial at best. You can see that by the questions I ask about their money, lifestyle, and career choices. I have never been to Europe or Asia, so obviously I have never been to Russia. But I would like to go sometime.
Because my great- and grandparents came from the Ukraine and Poland, I have always had a curiosity, but only that.
And as mentioned earlier in this thread, I had a "penfriend" in Ekaterinburg and I have a penfriend in Irkutsk. In fact, Dmitri just sent me an email saying he is moving into a new apartment and renovating.
I have an active interest in world events. I know more about other regions of the world than I do Russia.
As far as Ekaterina, to say that I have more knowledge than her about Russia is a huge insult to her. She could tell me a completely different story and I would not know the difference between truth or lie.
For example, I read about Russians now flying over to NYC for shopping and that the middle class is booming. In fact, in investment circles, BRIC is now a popular acronym, which represents Brazil, Russia, India and China. While those countries still have their challenges, there is a lot of wealth being created. So I was just curious about life in Ekaterinburg. From some pictures I saw on Flickr, I saw a lot of cranes, indicating lots of construction. Construction typically indicates a strong, vibrant economy. So I was and am curious how people in Ekaterinburg view their situation.
I am pleased that Ekaterina and others are willing to indulge my questions. I can ask and argue my points to learn more. With Dmitri, we often see the same world events and other things very differently. But the advantage I have in this forum is that I can ask more blunt questions without seeming to be rude. I would not want to ask Dmitri how much money he makes or how he views his future. That would seem rude to ask that of a friend. But I believe people understand if I ask a similar question for a population in general. I am no longer focused on my friend, but rather the population.
So vitalsigns, I am not sure where you got the "people come to supposedly ask questions who actually know more about the topic than those who respond to them," thought from. Because this much I know, my knowledge of Russia doesn't hold a candle to that of someone who actually lives there. As I stated at the outset, my knowledge is superficial at best, just a patina.
Entropy |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Do not mind my remarks. I am just playing a Simon Cowell here. I always try to see true intentions behind the people's actions.
| Quote: | | With Dmitri, we often see the same world events and other things very differently. But the advantage I have in this forum is that I can ask more blunt questions without seeming to be rude. I would not want to ask Dmitri how much money he makes or how he views his future. That would seem rude to ask that of a friend. |
Can you elaborate on this a little bit more? I am intrigued.
| Quote: | | Because my great- and grandparents came from the Ukraine and Poland, I have always had a curiosity, but only that. |
Were they persecuted for their faith? Any mennonite connection there at all? |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| vitalsigns wrote: | | Can you elaborate on this a little bit more? I am intrigued. |
Before addressing Dmitri specifically, I need to provide more information on my biases and preconceptions.
I have learned a fair amount of Spanish in Central America, and I have lived briefly in South America. When I was South America, I met a lot of people who wanted to live in the States. In fact, many of them did leave and now reside in the States, some illegally. They viewed their conditions in South America as challenging and unlikely to get better.
Now, switching to Russia and Eastern Europe. We have all seen the documentaries people trafficking from Russia and Eastern Europe. We have seen many Western European countries flooded with immigrants looking for a better life. We also know that the US, Israel, and other western nations have accepted many immigrants from Eastern Europe and Russia.
In reading Adventure Capitalist: The Ultimate Road Trip, I learned through the author Jim Rogers that many Russians did not appreciate their lives or their country. Women in particular were unhappy. Jim Rogers, a very famous hedge fund manager, provided very negative comments about Russia during his travels in and about the the 2001 time frame.
And lately, we have heard about the wealth in Russia. We have learned about its booming economy with oil and gas revenues.
From a political perspective, I find this interesting. The global powers are shifting. Putin knows this and is taking advantage of it. If I were him, I would use my new economic strength to my advantage too, though perhaps express it in a different way. But politics are about strategy and game playing, which eventually effects us little people.
I am more interested how the average citizen views his or her life. Given what I have written above, I had expected most Russians would to want to leave their country. But with my friend in Ekaterinburg and Dmitri, I sense a deep Russian pride. So I find what Ekaterina has written very interesting because it seems to contradict my impressions by my two friends.
Dmitri doesn't speak a lot about his personal life. I know that he is married and works as an economist. He is interested in improving his English and likes to exchange views on current world events. We had an interesting discussion about Russia turning off the gas to the Ukraine. He sided completely with Russia, and, not surprisingly, I sided completey with Ukraine. I was surprised by how strongly he supported Russia's stance. And I am sure he was equally surprised at how I supported a former satellite country that was and is courting the West. He believes that the Western media is not being fair by providing a more balanced viewpoint. And I suspect that he is correct. I further suspect that we citizens of the world don't fully understand what took place or why it took place. I suspect that there were some aggressive games being played by various countries for their geopolitical strategy. Unless you are privy to the backroom negotiations, you are only an outsider speculating.
Jim Rogers believes that the Chinese are doing extremely well, and they might in the future occupy parts of Siberia. When I mentioned this to Dmitri, he completely disagreed. Since I have never been there, I can only ask questions.
From what I gather, Dmitri likes his life and how things are progressing. I believe he likes Westerners. He is cautious but curious.
So my earlier preconceptions seemed misplaced. But Ekaterina seems to add credence to my preconceptions. So I just find the whole discussion interesting.
I have a hunch that Ekaterina might be providing a more truer picture. She doesn't know me and therefore has no vested stake in the outcome. I think when you are friends with someone, you are inclined to put your best position forward. That is not to say, however, that I don't believe Dmitri. I suspect he is truly happy.
| vitalsigns wrote: | | Were they persecuted for their faith? Any mennonite connection there at all? |
On my father's side, I think they were simple farming peasants from the Ukraine looking for a better life. Many Ukrainians settled near Edmonton Alberta Canada. In fact, a small community outside of Edmonton called Vegreville has the world's largest Pysanka (or Easter Egg) and is a large settlement of Ukrainian people.
My grandfather is now in a home and my grandmother is not. They had gone to Russia for a visit prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain. I vaguely recall that they were surprised at the difference in the level of industrialization in farming. They compared their farm with its tractors and combines to what they saw in Russia.
On my mother's side, my grandfather left Poland as a teenager. Neither I nor my mother know much more than that. My grandmother was born in Canada. My greatgrandmother had come over as a child and her husband died in a coal mine in the Crowsnest Pass (in the Rocky Moutains between the provinces of Alberta and British Columbia) near what is now Frank's Slide. Eventually the town of Frank was lost to Frank slide where a portion of a mountain fell over the town in the middle of the night. (Incidentally, I have no idea who Kristi is in the photo; I just used her picture.)
Although I remember meeting my greatgrandmother, I don't recall much now. I know that she was an amazing woman who raised two children, my grandmother (now deceased) and her brother (also deceased) while taking care of a farm.
So no Mennonite connection.
I hope that helps frame my knowledge and curiousity.
Entropy |
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Ekaterina
Talk Show Host
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | | My guess is that prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain, Russians could not travel easily to foreign countries. |
We didn't really need it because we were happy here. I understood how it is interesting to travel around the world after I got this opportunity but there are very few people who do it like me. Most people now travel just to Turkey, Egipt and Greece on holidays to relax on the beach. In Soviet Union we travelled to Sochi and Crimea. We got the tours there for free at our work, now only disabled and some other categories of people may get it for free and the price is similar to the price on tours to Turkey and Egipt.
| Entropy wrote: | | How about the ability to criticize the government in the press? Although I have read that the government still exerts considerable influence over the press. |
Do normal people really need to critisize the government in the press?
I consider our government's decision to suppress the newpaper which published the caricatures offended Muslims very good. When I watch TV I often think that censorship is nesessary because many programmes now account for depravity and makig people stupid.
| Entropy wrote: | | How about the ability to organize and demonstrate against whatever? Or the ability to elect your own government? |
Look at America. No critisism can change its government politics.
Does it really matter in Russia now which one of corruptioned parties is in power?
| Entropy wrote: | One comment I found interesting, "It is really difficult for young people to cope with their life now when the country doesn't show them the direction..."
Is that the government's role? Or does that responsibility fall to the individual?
Under Soviet rule, when did you learn your future career? Could you switch careers easily? |
We had common main ideas and could choose our role in the society in accordance with our capabilities.
We could choose our future careers when we entered a University and we chose the occupation we liked. Now young people have to choose what is better to survive.
| Entropy wrote: | | I suspect before, you could not import many consumer goods from the West? Now you can. |
We lived well without your consumer goods and it was better for developing of our economics.
| Entropy wrote: | | The money and ability to interact with people beyond FSU countries has enriched your life, no? |
For me personally yes, I really like to learn about African tribes etc. but most Russian people don't interact with foreigners.
| Entropy wrote: | | That said, I don't think the old system could continue forever. I believe computer and other technologies were leaving the Soviet system further behind. It would be very difficult for the Russians with a 150 million people to have a completely insular economy. The rest of the world is engaged in freer trade. Countries either have to join or be left behind. It seems to me that Russia had very little choice. |
I agree that we had to open to interact with foreign countries but we hadn't to destroy our country.
| Entropy wrote: | ...Dmitri likes his life and how things are progressing...
...I suspect he is truly happy. |
Can you imaging I am also very happy here and love my country very much regardless of where things go. |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:52 am Post subject: |
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Ekaterina,
Before I begin to respond to your message, I want to say how much I enjoy reading your responses. I can tell you give each question a lot of thought before answering.
I find myself disagreeing many of your comments, which I will outline shortly. That said, I have tremendous respect for you, because a) you are willing to help me, b) you are obviously smart, and c) I believe you are a genuinely terrific person. So please don't think my philosophical discussion detracts from my respect nor admiration of you.
I know it is easy to become emotionally embroiled in these discussions, thinking that there is a right or a wrong, and only one of us can be right. However, I don't think that way. I have not lived in your circumstances, so I cannot say how I would react had I been raised in Russia. To me, this whole discussion is interesting.
I just wanted to let you know that my comments below do not deminish my appreciaion of your assistance.
So having said all that, let's return to your comments.
| Ekaterina wrote: | | We didn't really need it because we were happy here. I understood how it is interesting to travel around the world after I got this opportunity but there are very few people who do it like me. Most people now travel just to Turkey, Egipt and Greece on holidays to relax on the beach. In Soviet Union we travelled to Sochi and Crimea. We got the tours there for free at our work, now only disabled and some other categories of people may get it for free and the price is similar to the price on tours to Turkey and Egipt. |
While I believe it is important to see other cultures, I think it is equally or even more important to be able to do so without government interference. I very much dislike the government being able to tell me what I can and cannot do. Obviously, there are laws, so it is not anarchy. But to be able to travel and see different parts of the world should not involve any government intervention.
In Canada, the government now has a database where our foriegn trips are recorded for up to six months. That bothers me. It's none of their business. But with the terrorism paranioa, that is one of the silly laws we now have.
I think it must have seemed unfair. Under Soviet rule, I could visit you, but you could not visit me. What was the government so afraid of?
| Ekaterina wrote: | Do normal people really need to critisize the government in the press?
I consider our government's decision to suppress the newpaper which published the caricatures offended Muslims very good. When I watch TV I often think that censorship is nesessary because many programmes now account for depravity and makig people stupid. |
Yes, I believe that people need to be able to highlight errors of the government in the press or on weblogs or whatever. To me, that is absolutely critical. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. At least a bright light helps to reduce corruption. Corruption is an evil that saps the human soul.
The Muslim issue is a harder one for me. I am undecided. On one hand, I believe in tolerance, and therefore, I am not appreciative of the caricatures that offended the Muslims. But on the other hand, I am adamant that free speech must be protected, even if some people are upset and offended. If you allow freedom of thought and expression, then progress can and will be made. If you suppress freedom of thought and expression, then it will be very dark for society.
A couple of newspapers in Canada displayed the Muslim cartoons. The reaction was very muted here. People didn't get in a big fuss.
I also agree that much of TV is poor and probably does negatively influence society. But who I am to say what you can or should watch. While I believe public airwaves must adhere to certain moral codes, beyond that, I believe people should decide for themselves.
In the West, we read a lot about Putin having excessive influence in the media. If true (as given by western reporting), then I think that is bad. People must be exposed to everything and they can decide. The ultimate power of the vote must reside with the people. If the government dictates what the citizens can or cannot see, then that is very poor. People will be misled and make incorrect decisions.
| Ekaterina wrote: | Look at America. No critisism can change its government politics.
Does it really matter in Russia now which one of corruptioned parties is in power? |
Oh I don't agree. I think public opinion is shaping their policies. Already both parties are jockeying for the next election when Bush will have completed his second term. They are carefully monitoring public opinion on the War in Iraq and other key issues. I also think it is very interesting when former Presidents speak publicly and disagree with the current administration. I think it is healthy that a society can fiercely debate its points of view, and that a society protects that right to express its point of view.
To not be able to express a point of view is to surrender or simply give up.
For the most part, I just vote in our elections and that's that. But every once and a while, I will write my Member of Parliament in Canada and voice my opinion. I think that is healthy. I think that is good. I think it is good to be able to participate as much as you want in the political process.
| Ekaterina wrote: | (Under Soviet rule,) We had common main ideas and could choose our role in the society in accordance with our capabilities.
We could choose our future careers when we entered a University and we chose the occupation we liked. Now young people have to choose what is better to survive. |
But our system is no different. We participate in society in accordance with our abilities. And those professions which do not earn much money do not attract as many people. People are attracted by both interests and money. Granted, that is not to say that a lawyer is more important than a social worker. But people are offered choices by their abilities and motivations.
As far as survival, I think the Soviet system was on a collision course anyway. For example, Canada and the US exported a lot of wheat to Russia. Our farming practices continued to become better. It was harsh. Inefficient farmers lost their farms. Big farms are more efficient than smaller farms. I suspect with more free enterprise, Russia will grow much more wheat than it did in the past, even though many farmers will undergo hardship as this transformation is made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_wheat_production_statistics
Russia 1996: 34.9 metric tons
Russia 2002: 50.6 metric tons
Canada 1996: 29.8 metric tons
Canada 2002: 15.7 metric tons
I suspect Canada's production went down because it switched away from wheat to other crops. One of our largest customers, Russia, no longer needed as much wheat. For Russia, that is a good thing. Rather than relying on foreigners to supply it with important food, it can grow its own.
I suspect that many parts of Russia's economy were like that. Russia was becoming more uncompetitive with the world economy as time went along. So the longer it waited, the more painful the adjustment would eventually be.
Russia with its population of 150 million simply could not match the economy of the rest of world. The rest of the world was forced to constantly innovate, or perish.
| Ekaterina wrote: | | We lived well without your consumer goods and it was better for developing of our economics. |
I don't believe that is true Ekaterina. If it were true, then you could simply not buy our goods. You could say, we will only buy Russian made goods. Foreigners, too bad, soo sad.
I think you will buy computers, which have parts made from all over the world, to improve your efficiency. You will buy Bill Gates's Windows. You will buy better equipment where it is economically to your advantage. Russia will employ that equipment to raise its standard of living. With oil and gas and commodities, I suspect much of Russia's industrial purchases will go toward increasing Russia's output of oil, gas, and other commodities.
| Ekaterina wrote: | | For me personally yes, I really like to learn about African tribes etc. but most Russian people don't interact with foreigners. |
And now you can. You can learn about foreign people much easier than the past. Knowledge and exposure is always a good thing.
| Ekaterina wrote: | | I agree that we had to open to interact with foreign countries but we hadn't to destroy our country. |
I hope your country is not destroyed. But Russians themselves will determine the fate of their country, not foreigners.
| Ekaterina wrote: | | Can you imaging I am also very happy here and love my country very much regardless of where things go. |
Sure, I can see your passion for your country. Of course, you are proud. I too am critical of Canada and the United States occasionally, but I am proud of my country. Although we are a large country geographically (though small compared to Russia), we are a small country population wise. We only have 30 million people. Yet we do well.
I am guessing that Russia didn't have much choice in letting go of the old Soviet system. It simply wasn't the best form of government. That said, I don't think unbridled free enterprise is the best either. There has to be checks and balances. But I do like the ability to be free. Free to think what I want and express what I want. The United States allows for more freedom of expression than Canada does, and I think that is a point in the US favor. While it makes for more heated discussions, it allows for more complete information.
Question for you Ekaterina, are you views fairly representative of the Russian viewpoint? I know we are all unique. So I am curious if your views are commonly held. The reason for the question is that I get the impression you liked the Soviet system better than the current system? If there were another strong leader after Putin who decided to spend more on the military and have Russia become more insular again, would you be in favor of such a development?
Again, I really enjoy your participation.
Entropy |
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Fire_Goddess
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| vitalsigns wrote: | | Do not mind my remarks. I am just playing a Simon Cowell here. I always try to see true intentions behind the people's actions. |
Please tell me you do not watch American Idol?   |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Fire_Goddess wrote: | | vitalsigns wrote: | | Do not mind my remarks. I am just playing a Simon Cowell here. I always try to see true intentions behind the people's actions. |
Please tell me you do not watch American Idol? |
I hate it. I do like Simon though.
You know this syrupy-sweet talk between Entropy and Ekaterina leaves only one impression: Entropy likes Ekaterina. The thing is, her name may not even be Ekaterina (Entropy likes to repeat her name over and over again with gentleness). And she keeps writing back only because she wants to explain things and have him leave her alone! |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| vitalsigns wrote: | | You know this syrupy-sweet talk between Entropy and Ekaterina leaves only one impression: Entropy likes Ekaterina. The thing is, her name may not even be Ekaterina (Entropy likes to repeat her name over and over again with gentleness). And she keeps writing back only because she wants to explain things and have him leave her alone! |
That's hilarious. It's good to see you have a sense of humor.
I have no idea of whether Ekaterina and I would even get along if we ever met. We certainly have different views about the world. Because nobody else seems to answer or participate, I am certainly appreciative of her answers. Just so we're clear, everyone is free, in fact--encouraged, to participate in this discussion. If this were meant to be a private discussion, I would have taken it offline.
And as far as the syrupy-sweet talk, I don't think so. I am just being polite. I am equally polite with my married friend Dmitri in Irkutsk. These political discussion can become very heated, very fast. So I think it is important to separate one's political views and feelings from personal views and feelings.
That said vitalsigns, I am glad that our correspondence has so enraptured you that keep constant tabs on the discussion. Now if you would only participate. 
Last edited by Entropy on Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fire_Goddess
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| I enjoy entropys command of the english language. However this is turning into a dance of sorts. I dont know how to explain it, its only how I see it. Anyway I am enjoying it. |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:06 am Post subject: |
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Fire_Goddess,
Feel free to cut in at any time. I am a poor dancer, so forwarned is forearmed.
I think I know what you are driving at. You can see differences in opinion between Ekaterina and myself, yet our language is polite. Perhaps if were having this discussion in person, the rhetoric might be a bit more aggressive. And that's what you are looking for?
Sorry to disappoint, but that's not where I want to go. I am like a sponge right now soaking everything up. I am trying to rationalize why some Russians view their country as having a bleak or difficult future, yet they are defiantly proud of their country. The living conditions seem harsh, yet most people cope and adapt and are fine with their situation. To many of us in North America, this is an unexpected result.
I want to remain polite. As I said, I am learning. I find that if I keep my mind open, I can learn. If I prejudge, then I am wasting my time and everyone else's time.
Perhaps had I been raised in Russia, I might feel the same way as Ekaterina does. I don't know.
In a sense, I feel like a virtual tourist. I am able to discuss and learn from those far away without having traveled to their country yet. That said, tourists have an obligation to be respectful. If a tourist doesn't like the destination, he or she can always leave.
I hope that helps provide some perspective.
Entropy |
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vitalsigns
Lounge Wizard
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 2784
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: |
That said vitalsigns, I am glad that our correspondence has so enraptured you that keep constant tabs on the discussion. Now if you would only participate. |
I do not know much about those too cities. I was in Irkutsk in March of 1986 and it was still -30C even if it was March. So if you ever go on your quest of discovering Irkutsk in winter, make sure you put on 3 underwears and at least 3 pairs of warm socks. |
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ansie
Frequent Guest
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi Entropy,
Like you I'm of Ukrainian heritage - my grandparents were born there. As a result we're entitled to what is known as a P2 Visa, which means that it's valid for multiple entry for 10 years without the need for an invitation, or for registration with the police.
My very sincere advice to you is to go there. Preferably with someone who's been there or lives there now, but even if have to do it yourself it'll be very satisfying. Ukraine is a bit different from Russia - not as wealthy - but Kiev is a great city and in summer is truly beautiful. There are of course scammer types around but if you ignore them nobody will bother you. And I give you a money back guarantee that you'll have a good time.
As for the ex USSR in general, don't believe everything you read in the press. Some people are stuggling, it is true, but the resilience of the Russian people has to be seen to be believed. The old saying about necessity being the mother of invention has never been truer. And although they appear somewhat distant on the street, they are VERY hospitable people when you get to know them. Several years ago I went there to coach rugby referees and spent 12 days there. Much of it was a vodka induced haze, but I can also remember visiting people in their apartments where the table was covered with food.
So, mate, forget the academic search for information. Get on your bike and go there.
Regards,
Ansie |
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Fire_Goddess
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | Fire_Goddess,
Feel free to cut in at any time. I am a poor dancer, so forwarned is forearmed.
I think I know what you are driving at. You can see differences in opinion between Ekaterina and myself, yet our language is polite. Perhaps if were having this discussion in person, the rhetoric might be a bit more aggressive. And that's what you are looking for? |
Yes you hit the nail on the head. But I was not looking for it, I was expecting it to occur.  |
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Entropy
WayToRussified
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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ansie Great post. I don't have any Ukrainian connections in terms of people to meet. But I'd love to go sometime, and I will. Thank you for the great message.
Fire_Goodess Yeah, there is nothing here worth getting into a heated exchange over. While I might differ with Ekaterina and others, I doubt that I will convince them of my position, just as I doubt that they will convince me of their position. If we're lucky, we'll both be exposed to different points of view that will cause us to think and reflect.
I knew that if I were wealthy, I'd probably just travel from destination to destination learning from people. Learning about their history, culture, and language. |
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Fire_Goddess
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quite right! |
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